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	<title>Comments on: Time for a bit of Gove and take</title>
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	<description>Politics, brains, social action and the day to day life of the RSA’s chief executive</description>
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		<title>By: Debbie Hepplewhite</title>
		<link>http://www.matthewtaylorsblog.com/thersa/time-for-a-bit-of-gove-and-take/comment-page-1/#comment-6183</link>
		<dc:creator>Debbie Hepplewhite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 08:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matthewtaylorsblog.com/?p=2481#comment-6183</guid>
		<description>I have enjoyed reading the comments above and find them very reasonable. Sadly, the one group who are glaringly missing in debates about education is usually the teachers themselves.

One day I must write a book called &#039;the fine line&#039; because the older I get, the more I understand how every issue has a fine line regarding its reality. The perception creates the reality according to the perceiver&#039;s criteria based on his or her understanding, experience and viewpoint. What can look good or persuasive can look equally wrong or inappropriate when seen through another perspective.

This is exactly the case regarding the arguments between traditionalist and progressive education. It is so easy to argue the pros and cons one way and then another. People like myself who have fought rigorously, for example, to bring in small step, rigorous, systematic, whole class phonics teaching for reading, writing and spelling are described as traditional and right wing. This is far from the truth. What I do see from my knowledge, experience and viewpoint is that small step direct instruction along with ample time provided for children to put into practice what they are being taught is essential for underpinning their creativity and for developing their individual talents in all subject areas. In other words, there is room and need for both rather stereo types of teaching and learning.

Teachers, however, have been pushed this way and that way - and never more so than in the past few decades. They have not had the opportunity, nor been invited, to give their feedback on their own experiences and views on official guidance and everyone accepts that bureaucracy and pressure has grown beyond all reasonableness in recent times.

Worst of all, teachers are so overwhelmed for the most part that they have not the energy or inclination to fight their own corner to join in any debate about schools or teaching. Many of them, I suspect, have given up all hope of common sense systems (be they traditionalist or progressive or a mixture of both) and I doubt that they feel they have a true voice in the wider public domain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have enjoyed reading the comments above and find them very reasonable. Sadly, the one group who are glaringly missing in debates about education is usually the teachers themselves.</p>
<p>One day I must write a book called &#8216;the fine line&#8217; because the older I get, the more I understand how every issue has a fine line regarding its reality. The perception creates the reality according to the perceiver&#8217;s criteria based on his or her understanding, experience and viewpoint. What can look good or persuasive can look equally wrong or inappropriate when seen through another perspective.</p>
<p>This is exactly the case regarding the arguments between traditionalist and progressive education. It is so easy to argue the pros and cons one way and then another. People like myself who have fought rigorously, for example, to bring in small step, rigorous, systematic, whole class phonics teaching for reading, writing and spelling are described as traditional and right wing. This is far from the truth. What I do see from my knowledge, experience and viewpoint is that small step direct instruction along with ample time provided for children to put into practice what they are being taught is essential for underpinning their creativity and for developing their individual talents in all subject areas. In other words, there is room and need for both rather stereo types of teaching and learning.</p>
<p>Teachers, however, have been pushed this way and that way &#8211; and never more so than in the past few decades. They have not had the opportunity, nor been invited, to give their feedback on their own experiences and views on official guidance and everyone accepts that bureaucracy and pressure has grown beyond all reasonableness in recent times.</p>
<p>Worst of all, teachers are so overwhelmed for the most part that they have not the energy or inclination to fight their own corner to join in any debate about schools or teaching. Many of them, I suspect, have given up all hope of common sense systems (be they traditionalist or progressive or a mixture of both) and I doubt that they feel they have a true voice in the wider public domain.</p>
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		<title>By: Something’s got to Gove &#124; Matthew Taylor's blog</title>
		<link>http://www.matthewtaylorsblog.com/thersa/time-for-a-bit-of-gove-and-take/comment-page-1/#comment-4725</link>
		<dc:creator>Something’s got to Gove &#124; Matthew Taylor's blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:27:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matthewtaylorsblog.com/?p=2481#comment-4725</guid>
		<description>[...] questions. Maybe now he has published his education manifesto I have finally, albeit momentarily, moved to the top of his priority list (joking and bad puns aside, I am genuinely flattered and grateful). And what a fascinating reply [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] questions. Maybe now he has published his education manifesto I have finally, albeit momentarily, moved to the top of his priority list (joking and bad puns aside, I am genuinely flattered and grateful). And what a fascinating reply [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.matthewtaylorsblog.com/thersa/time-for-a-bit-of-gove-and-take/comment-page-1/#comment-3741</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 06:27:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matthewtaylorsblog.com/?p=2481#comment-3741</guid>
		<description>The Progressive vs Traditionalist dichotomy has been very damaging, particularly because there are so many &#039;falsehoods&#039; on either side which become common &#039;sense&#039;. For example - the battle against mixed ability teaching as though it is anti-intellectual and anti excellence. On the other side the danger of &#039;nonsense&#039; like brain gym becoming common currency.

It seems to me, one of the most traditional forms of learning - the &#039;liberal arts&#039; curriculum is all about developing competencies and introducing a challenging body of knowledge. Getting students to engage and &#039;do learning&#039; through grammar, logic/dialectic and rhetoric is at the root of so much good practice in academic and in practical teaching and learning.

However one dichotomy is all pervasive: are schools there to &#039;discover&#039; clever kids or grow them? When a teacher believes the former they are unlikely to unlock the true potential of their charges, and this is one of the main reasons that many are held back by their schooling rather than liberated by their learning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Progressive vs Traditionalist dichotomy has been very damaging, particularly because there are so many &#8216;falsehoods&#8217; on either side which become common &#8216;sense&#8217;. For example &#8211; the battle against mixed ability teaching as though it is anti-intellectual and anti excellence. On the other side the danger of &#8216;nonsense&#8217; like brain gym becoming common currency.</p>
<p>It seems to me, one of the most traditional forms of learning &#8211; the &#8216;liberal arts&#8217; curriculum is all about developing competencies and introducing a challenging body of knowledge. Getting students to engage and &#8216;do learning&#8217; through grammar, logic/dialectic and rhetoric is at the root of so much good practice in academic and in practical teaching and learning.</p>
<p>However one dichotomy is all pervasive: are schools there to &#8216;discover&#8217; clever kids or grow them? When a teacher believes the former they are unlikely to unlock the true potential of their charges, and this is one of the main reasons that many are held back by their schooling rather than liberated by their learning.</p>
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		<title>By: phil h</title>
		<link>http://www.matthewtaylorsblog.com/thersa/time-for-a-bit-of-gove-and-take/comment-page-1/#comment-3732</link>
		<dc:creator>phil h</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:15:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matthewtaylorsblog.com/?p=2481#comment-3732</guid>
		<description>I agree Matthew that a good building is better than a bad building. I accept also that a well designed building can make a marginal difference. The issue is a ROI one. Buildings built under PFI have not always been particularly good value see http://www.unison.org.uk/acrobat/13672.pdf and repair and maintenance of existing infrastructure may have been better value, freeing up resources to spend on other priorities.

In terms of outcome, I am sure we can agree that what goes on inside the building is more important than the building.

Traditionalist/progressive - not helpful labels - kids need the foundations of numeracy and literacy as a bare minimum and then need to develop their talents and enthusiasms - for some that may mean latin and classics, for others it may mean food technology, IT or textiles.

Michael Gove - he really ought to engage. I know that I can come across as a bit abrasive (particularly over student fees and top up loans grr) but you, Matthew, can at least debate the points I make even though you don&#039;t agree with them. What&#039;s Michael afraid of? Surely testing your ideas against someone who may not agree with them is the best way of refining and testing those ideas. As I continually remind myself, no one has a monopoly on judgment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree Matthew that a good building is better than a bad building. I accept also that a well designed building can make a marginal difference. The issue is a ROI one. Buildings built under PFI have not always been particularly good value see <a href="http://www.unison.org.uk/acrobat/13672.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.unison.org.uk/acrobat/13672.pdf</a> and repair and maintenance of existing infrastructure may have been better value, freeing up resources to spend on other priorities.</p>
<p>In terms of outcome, I am sure we can agree that what goes on inside the building is more important than the building.</p>
<p>Traditionalist/progressive &#8211; not helpful labels &#8211; kids need the foundations of numeracy and literacy as a bare minimum and then need to develop their talents and enthusiasms &#8211; for some that may mean latin and classics, for others it may mean food technology, IT or textiles.</p>
<p>Michael Gove &#8211; he really ought to engage. I know that I can come across as a bit abrasive (particularly over student fees and top up loans grr) but you, Matthew, can at least debate the points I make even though you don&#8217;t agree with them. What&#8217;s Michael afraid of? Surely testing your ideas against someone who may not agree with them is the best way of refining and testing those ideas. As I continually remind myself, no one has a monopoly on judgment.</p>
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		<title>By: matthewtaylor</title>
		<link>http://www.matthewtaylorsblog.com/thersa/time-for-a-bit-of-gove-and-take/comment-page-1/#comment-3705</link>
		<dc:creator>matthewtaylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:55:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matthewtaylorsblog.com/?p=2481#comment-3705</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this Andrew and for the time you have put into such a thoughtful response. As I said in the post to which you responded, the dichotomy isn&#039;t helpful and neither is name calling and blame mongering. At the moment the debate is anyway overlaid by the Conservatives political need to show that virtually everything going in schools is disastrous. You may know that posed a series of questions to Michael G a few months ago which, it seemed to me, did try to disclose the real dividing lines. As I said in my recent annual lecture the aim of responsible policy debate is to try to agree about what it is we disagree about. Your comment is a very helpful contribution to doing this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this Andrew and for the time you have put into such a thoughtful response. As I said in the post to which you responded, the dichotomy isn&#8217;t helpful and neither is name calling and blame mongering. At the moment the debate is anyway overlaid by the Conservatives political need to show that virtually everything going in schools is disastrous. You may know that posed a series of questions to Michael G a few months ago which, it seemed to me, did try to disclose the real dividing lines. As I said in my recent annual lecture the aim of responsible policy debate is to try to agree about what it is we disagree about. Your comment is a very helpful contribution to doing this.</p>
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